Gold & Silver Forum - feast eyes on this

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feast eyes on this

here's something I may start saving my lunch money for

(Click image to view larger image)

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/eukrat...?idProduct=386

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/eukrat...?idProduct=386

Syria, Seleucid Kings. Excessively Rare Portrait of Seleukos I. Finest Known!

SELEUKID KINGS of SYRIA. Antiochos I Soter. 280-261 BC. AR Tetradrachm (17.10 gm, 29 mm). Sardes mint. Struck circa 276-272 BC. Diademed and horned head of Seleukos I right / Apollo seated left on omphalos, holding bow; monogram to inner left and in exergue. SC 323.2b; cf. SNG Spaer 231; WSM 1366. An amazing portrait struck in the finest style. Fully lustrous and near mint state. The finest known of only a handful in existance. A truly once in a lifetime opportunity. Ex Muenzen and Medaillon, Basel Private Sale.

Price
US$ 17,500.00 euro 11,078.49
� 8,880.84
AUD$ 18,840.90
CHF 17,529.17
CAD$ 17,876.25

Rates for 4/14/2008

Re: feast eyes on this

here is attached image

Re: feast eyes on this

Only $17.5K? Get two.

:smokin:

Re: feast eyes on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1061851)

here is attached image

You'd have gotten on with a former GIM member, AntyEp, who managed to get banned a couple of months ago. He is heavily into coins of that nature.

Re: feast eyes on this

I don't touch ancients...too many fakes to trust them.
If you know what you're doing, I guess you can do all right.

Re: feast eyes on this

Beautiful design, incredible how able those ancient Greeks were!

Re: feast eyes on this

Whenever I get to a show, I love looking over the displays of ancient coins but I simply don't know enough to play in that market.

Re: feast eyes on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1062564)

You'd have gotten on with a former GIM member, AntyEp, who managed to get banned a couple of months ago. He is heavily into coins of that nature.

:D Quite true.

Re: feast eyes on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1062564)

You'd have gotten on with a former GIM member, AntyEp, who managed to get banned a couple of months ago. He is heavily into coins of that nature.

Anty Ep, like, Antiochus Epiphanes, the descendant of Seleukus Nikator? Who placed a statute of Zeus Olympias in the Hebrew Temple? Whom the Jewish folk ritually hate and revile each year when they remember Judah Maccabee at their holiday called "Channukah?" He was a great king indeed! He continued giving the gift of enlgihtened Hellenism to the peoples of Palestine. THough some did not much like it.

Much more affordable coins http://www.ancientimports.com/cgi-bi...fo.pl?id=16052

http://www.ancientimports.com/images/coins/16052.jpg

Re: feast eyes on this

another one of Antiochus http://www.ancientimports.com/images/coins/15040.jpg like that skorpion?

Re: feast eyes on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1062826)

Is that so? Thanks for the history lesson, quite interesting. Actually that's pretty funny but it would take a while to explain.

This was his avatar.

Re: feast eyes on this

Many of the ancientimports.com stuff is pretty pricey to me. I prefer buying uncleaned and doing them up myself.
www.forumancientcoins.com
www.nobleromancoins.com
are my favourite places

Re: feast eyes on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1062564)

You'd have gotten on with a former GIM member, AntyEp, who managed to get banned a couple of months ago. He is heavily into coins of that nature.

Psst...SN = AE.

Re: feast eyes on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1063144)

.............
This was his avatar.

Yes that's obviously the visage of Antiochus Epiphanes. I have been looking for that coin on the market for years and not found it yet.

Here is a good accounting of that king and an intro to his coinage. If you wonder why his coins command premium over the others Seleukids this should explain it.

http://virtualreligion.net/iho/antiochus_4.html

Quote:

Antiochus IV Epiphanes [ca. 215 -164 BCE]

Since the third son of Antiochus III was not in direct line for the Seleucid throne, he was sent to Rome as a hostage after his father's defeat by the Romans (189 BCE) . Fourteen years later (175 BCE) his older brother, Seleucus IV, secured his release shortly before being murdered by his own chief minister. Antiochus avenged his brother's death & claimed the throne instead of his nephew, Demetrius, who was a 12 year old hostage in Rome. When Ptolemy VI sought to occupy Palestine, Antiochus moved swiftly to defeat & claim control of most of Egypt & Cyprus (169 BCE). Despite these victories, however, Roman intervention on behalf of the Ptolemaic kingdom deprived him of all his territorial gains. His retreat (166 BCE) set the stage for the Jewish revolt led by Judah Maccabee (165 BCE).

Antiochus' lack of lasting military achievements was offset by his policy of Hellenization. He was not only a lavish benefactor of shrines to Greek gods across the eastern Mediterranean -- including the temple of Zeus at Athens --, in territories he controlled he actively promoted the cult of the living ruler founded by his father, representing himself as the manifestation of the supreme god, Zeus (hence the epithet epiphanes). Thus, he turned the advancement of Greek culture into a political tool to publicize his own claims of absolute power. And as the supreme god incarnate he assumed personal responsibility for all religious cult within his realm.

Soon after he assumed the Seleucid throne (175 BCE), Antiochus filled the vacant office of high priest of the Jewish temple state in Jerusalem (which his father had brought under Seleucid control a quarter of a century earlier) with a Hellenized Judean priest who took the Greek name Jason, but replaced him in 172 BCE with his brother Menelaus, on promise of greater tribute. To curry Antiochus' support, these rival priests completely Hellenized Jerusalem, promoting Greek culture & building a gymnasium for Olympic sport.

While Antiochus was conquering Egypt (169 BCE), Jason's forces recaptured Jerusalem & slaughtered supporters of Menelaus. Returning from Egypt (167 BCE) Antiochus sacked Jerusalem & rebuilt it as a Seleucid fortress. Torah observance was outlawed & the imperial cult brought into the Jewish temple itself with the erection of a statue of Antiochus as Zeus with a Hellenistic altar of sacrifice. Jews who resisted were subject to execution.

Antiochus returned in triumph to Antioch (166 BCE) but soon had to turn his attention to more serious challenges to his suzerainty on his eastern border in campaigns against Armenia & the Parthians. He fell ill & died while in Persia
(164 BCE). Meanwhile, the concentration of the bulk of his forces in the eastern provinces enabled the family of a Jewish priest named Mattathias to oust the Antiochene party from Jerusalem, purge the temple & begin the formation of an independent Jewish state.

References: Josephus, Antiquities 12.234-246, 257-270, 293-297, 316-320, 354-361.
______, Against Apion 1.34, 2.80-84,90-102.
Livy, History of Rome 41.20-25, 42.6, 45.11-13.
Appian, History of Rome: Syrian Wars 7.39, 8.45, 11.66.

Other online resources:

Antiochus IV, Epiphanes - Louis Ginzberg's 1901 article in The Jewish Encyclopedia.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes in Jerusalem - paper by Daniel R. Schwartz resolves historical difficulties in ancient reports of Antiochus' looting of the Jewish temple [posted by Orion Institute, Hebrew University].

Chanukah Parallels - Jonathan Rosenblum summarizes Elias Bickerman's 1938 thesis that Antiochus' suppression of Judaic tradition was instigated by Jewish assimilationists rather a general policy of aggressive Hellenization on the king's own part [Jerusalem Post December 18, 1998].

Antiochus IV Epiphanes - article in Wikipedia's web.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Jona Lendering's biographical sketch lists primary resources [Livius: Articles on Ancient History].

The images on the coins above illustrate the official metamorphosis of Antiochus IV into a deity. The face of the first [a silver tetradrachma] bears the clean-shaven likeness of the king wearing the royal diadem. The reverse side portrays an enthroned bearded Zeus with scepter in his left hand & the figure of winged Victory [Greek: Nike] in his outstretched right hand [a slight modification of the mythical motif on the back of coins of Alexander the Great]. The inscription [with top at left edge] reads: Basileos Antiochou [continuing to left of throne] Theou Epiphaniou [concluding at bottom] Nikephorou ["of King Antiochus, God Manifest, Victory bearer']. The face of the bronze coin at the right portrays a bearded Antiochus as Zeus laureate himself, wearing the victor's wreath. The reverse side [not shown] identifies the image: "of King Antiochus, God Manifest." Both coins were minted in Antioch.

For high resolution images of these and other coins of Antiochus IV see Ancient Coinage of Seleucia, Antiochos IV in David Surber's excellent ancient coins website: Wildwinds.

Re: feast eyes on this

This is a side note but if you want to see how the Greek and Roman Empires both fused and syncretized and reacted similarly in Palestine, there is little better case in point than the practice of circumcision. This Jewish custom was an abomination to Greeks and Romans. You can read about it here. I will skip the first part about the decircumcision surgery described by Celsus and go ahead to the part that contains the words of the great Roman historian Tacitus. http://www.cirp.org/library/restoration/rubin/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------:

Who would have undergone these procedures? Celsus distinguishes between patients with congenitally deficient foreskins and those who have been circumcised "after the custom of certain races."

Were these certain races? The Jews seem most obvious but they were not the only circumcised peoples known to the Romans. The Egyptians also practiced circumcision, although by Roman times it was limited to the priestly caste. In addition, Arabs, Ethiopians-Colehians, and Phoenicians were also circumcised.

While Celsus does not refer explicitly to the Jews, a glans bared by circumcision was associated with Jewishness in Rome during the early empire. Horace uses the adjective curtus (cut, shortened, mutilated) describe an easily recognizable national characteristic when he mentions the Jews (curtis Judueis) (Satire 1.9.70). Petronius has Cito say, "Circumcise us, that we may appear to be Jews." (Satyricon 102.14) Circumcision in this context is one of several physical signs of nationality, along with the white face of the Gaul and the pierced ears of the Arab. Tacitus expresses his opinion that the Jews "have instituted circumcising the genitals in order to be distinguished by this difference." (Historia 5.5) This statement occurs in a list of Jewish customs that Tacitus finds "base and abominable, persisting due to their depravity." His catalogue includes the Jews temple tax, their clannishness, refusal to sleep with non-Jewish women, food laws, lust, burial customs, and refusal to honor the Roman Emperor in short, their rejection of all things Roman. Suetonius (Domitian 12.2) implies that circumcision was the criterion for identifying a Jew; he recalls the crowded public examination of a man in his nineties to see if he were circumcised and so liable to the fiscus Iudaicus.

It is difficult to separate the Romans' responses to circumcision per se from their reactions to the Jews, Tacitus does not malign circumcision more than other Jewish traits he finds offensive. It is also difficult to appreciate whether Roman satirists found the appearance of the circumcised penis itself funny or relied on any mention of a Jewish trait to raise a laugh. One encounters this problem in Petronius description of a clever slave: "Yet he has two faults which if he did not have, he would be perfect: he is circumcised, and he snores." (Sat. 68.8) Did the surprising collocation of circumcision and snoring strike a Roman as funny, or was Petronius making a "Jewish joke?" Martial describes an athlete whose large penis shield (some elaborate version of a fibula)* fell off in the middle of the palestra.

*The fibula was usually a circular pin inserted in the edges of the uncircumcised Foreskin to prevent the prepuce from being retracted, (Cf. Celsus 7.25.3) Comic actors and singers often under-went infibulation to prevent intercourse which was believed harmful to the voice. In Martial 7.82 the fibula seems to have been a sheath that covered the glans. revealing his circumcised glans:

So great a fibula covers Menophilus's penis that it alone would suffice all the comic actors. I had believed (for we often bathe together) that this fellow was taking care to spare his voice, Flaccus. But while he exercised in the middle of the palestra, in public view. his fibula slipped -- he was circumcised! (7.82)

It is not clear where the humor lay for a Roman in Menophilus's unmasking. Was his disclosure funny because it indicated he was a Jew? Or was Martial tapping an unchanging human response to the revelation that someone is other than what he purports to be? Perhaps a modern analogy would be the amusement caused if the bikini top of a voluptuous film star fell off, revealing that she was flat-chested. Whatever it was about Menophilus's circumcision that amused Martial, Menophilus was embarrassed enough about his condition to keep up his disguise, even when bathing with his friend.

The earliest evidence for decircumcision connects this operation with the Jews. I Maccabees 1:14-15 (c.167 B.C.) contains a reference to the reconstruction of the foreskin:5

"Thereupon they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem according to the customs of the gentiles and made foreskins for themselves, rebelling against the sacred covenant."
The collocation of gymnasium and decircumcision reminds us that complete nudity was customary for all exercises and sports performed in a Greek gymnasium. Celsus's description in De medicina, nearly two centuries later, provides the next solid reference to the decircumcision operation. Then, in I Corinthians 7.18 (mid first century A.D.) Paul writes "Is any man called, who is circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised" Paul's prohibition suggests that the operation was known among Jews and gentiles like at a date very close to that of Celsus. The coincidence of the first recorded mention of decircumcision during the reign of Antiochus IV in I Maccabees 1:14-15, with its reference to the Hellenistic institution of the gymnasium and the beginning of the persecution of the Jews, suggests that decircumcision was practiced by the Jews as one of the first steps in assimilation.*
*Analogous phenomena include the Jews' perennial inclination to change their names in the Diaspora, and the recent popularity of reductive rhinoplasty in Twentieth Century America.

Motives for assimilation fall into two categories (1) escape from persecution. and (2) improvement of one's social and economic position. In Rome of the early first century A.D., when Celsus was writing no secure evidence exists in either category for Jews who would have undergone Celsus's operations. In A.D. 19 Tiberius expelled 4,000 Jews from Rome, sending them to Sardinia for military service. It is possible that some Jewish males of military age (18 to 45) were decircumcised to escape the sentence. In the second category the evidence is no more encouraging. The social educational and economic status of most practicing Jews in Rome was low, excluding them from gentile social circles where decircumcision would have enhanced their chances of public success and economic improvement.

The situation was different in Alexandria, where Celsus may have obtained his operation. It is highly likely that wealthy educated, newly apostate Jews attempted to gain Greek citizenship for their sons, which carried with it the double advantage of exemption from the laographia, a tax levied on all males who were not Greek citizens,' and social recognition. The criterion for full Greek citizenship or, next best, a reduced rate of payment of the laographia was an education as an ephebos in the gymnasium.' Second-generation Hellenized Jews probably abandoned circumcision entirely.

To sum up, circumcision, associated particularly but not exclusively with the Jews, constituted an embarrassment in the Roman world of the first century A.D. For Jews and other circumcised individuals who wished to pass as normal in their society. Celsus described a relatively easy plastic surgical procedure that could remove the mark of circumcision. In addition, non-Jews who were born without foreskins and also were considered disfigured according to Hellenistic and Roman values may have undergone Celsus operation for reconstruction of the prepuce

-- Citation:
Rubin JP. Celsus's decircumcision operation. Urology 1980;16(1):121-4.

Re: feast eyes on this

What Rubin does not say is that the Greek custom of excluding the circumcised from the gymnasium, where men exercised nude, served the social purposes both of excluding unassimilated foreigners from this important social activity, and also served the purpose of excluding homosexuals who couldnt keep themselves from getting excited and hence exposing their glans.

The circumcised penis bears a certain resemblance to the erect one, and I have read anthropologists who refer to the early Hebrew cult as "phallic" due to the rite of circumcision which makes it look sort of hard like.

Anyways, I thought y'all might find that even more interesting than the other stuff just for oddity's sake.

Re: feast eyes on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turner-son (Post 1063401)

Psst...SN = AE.

I dunno, the writing styles and politics are different. No way Anty Ep would gone off on a historical tome as in post #15 above. The thought did occur to me.

Re: feast eyes on this

ha, I see someone chirped up and gave a meager one star rating to my thread. crazy me I though this was a good topic for a numismatic forum. I must be in the wrong place.

Re: feast eyes on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1063487)

ha, I see someone chirped up and gave a meager one star rating to my thread. crazy me I though this was a good topic for a numismatic forum. I must be in the wrong place.

I note that someone else has anteed up another 2 stars. :wink:

I wouldn't worry about it. Whether or not a historical discourse on circumcision is perfectly in place on a numismatic forum, it was entertaining.

Re: feast eyes on this

I enjoyed the little historic lesson.

TAB

Re: feast eyes on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1063458)

I dunno, the writing styles and politics are different. No way Anty Ep would gone off on a historical tome as in post #15 above. The thought did occur to me.

Please...the terminology is the same, the avatars are related and the interests are identical.

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showp...8&postcount=41
http://goldismoney.info/forums/showp...89&postcount=6

AE's views on taxes are well known (I share most of them ... not knocking it - just pointing out the obvious). http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=256864

Convinced yet? :D

Re: feast eyes on this

I am flattered, Turnerson, that you would compare me to that erudite fellow. Have a great day!

Re: feast eyes on this

Oh man,,, I wish I wouda seen this thread earlier. I got one of those Seleukid coins in my change at McDonald's a couple days ago, and spent it next door at the car wash.
:D

I do think it'd be interesting to have an electrum coin.
I looked a couple times and only found some dinky half-inch things that they wanted $1K for.
Oh well.
~

Re: feast eyes on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyvike (Post 1072520)

Ya think?

:beer:

Yep! :D Not making a judgement call here - just pointing out the obvious in response to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1062564)

You'd have gotten on with a former GIM member, AntyEp, who managed to get banned a couple of months ago. He is heavily into coins of that nature.

Re: feast eyes on this

do you remember how they made up anthony hopkins in oliver stone's alexander, when he played the old king narrating? Tell me they didnt consult this image. looks just like him in the movie.

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.c...yII_large2.jpg

Re: feast eyes on this

here is on they say has a "quadripartite" design incuse on the reverse. they couldnt really say, swastika, could they? but I have been seeing these types a lot recently.

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.c...lleneCoin.html

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.c...casII_larg.jpg